Real estate investing today seems to be about fixing-and-flipping or putting a property up on Airbnb. But Ryan Short, the founder of Title Town Acquisitions, is all about disrupting that idea and creating real value with his investments for himself and the wider community.
Ryan specializes in multi-family, commercial rental properties. And over the years, he’s developed a knack for finding “diamonds in the rough” that others don’t recognize.
We talk about what makes for a good value property that yields returns for years to come. We talk about his strategy, as well as…
- How real estate marketing can trick you – and what to watch out for
- 5+ ways to reduce risk in real estate investing
- The least competitive real estate market for investors
- Beyond the background check – a process for finding ideal tenants
- And more
Mentioned in this episode:
Jay Sparks: Hello, it’s Jay Sparks, your host of Finding Unique Value where I interview business leaders that have found unique value in their business or industry that others have not yet seen or explored.
And today, I’m excited to be joined by Ryan Short, who’s the founder of Title Town Acquisitions, which has a unique take on buying, managing, and developing investment real estate. In the days, where everyone seems to be either, you know, sharing a property like Airbnb or flipping a property to make a quick profit, There are few, they’re still looking to create value. Not only for the owner of the property, but also for the immediate community. So looking forward to seeing how Ryan is able to stand out and do this in such a crowded and competitive space. So, Ryan, welcome to the podcast. Great to be talking to you today.
Ryan Short: How are you doing, Jay? Thank you.
Jay Sparks: Very well. Could you just take a minute and just introduce yourself and give us any background that you think might be helpful in understanding where you’ve come from, and how you’ve arrived at this? At this business?
BRRR: Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, Repeat
Ryan Short: Yeah, of course. So, obviously, as you said, I’m the owner of Title Town Acquisitions. We, actually, our main goal is to reposition projects all over eastern mass and around as well. Basically, we use a strategy called “Brrr”. It’s: buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat. And we reposition the project from say a lower market value, and we renovate the entire property from the exterior to the inside. And, we try to raise rents from different possible ways: in general, it’s basically a value add. There are many different ways you could do it, but in general, just you start from a lower aspect, the lower property value, and we raise the property value through repositioning all the insides and outsides.
Ryan: Just, basically, we raise the value of a property.
Jay: Interesting. So how did you… like what is your background? What did you do before this? Has this been a path you’ve always been on, or did this just come up at some random time and you really liked the idea and decided to pursue it?
Ryan: Yeah, well, when I was younger, I really wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. But I always had real estate in the back of my mind. My father, and my… I had other couple other family members that were actually investing in real estate at the time to start small families. And, I always wanted to do it, but I just wasn’t sure how.
My father and my brother actually did a program in California about flipping houses, and that kind of opened my eyes a little bit, and kind of made me jealous in a certain way. And then I just, I wanted to get into something. I just had a craving to… to just have something some kind of passion.
And then once I found real estate I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which with a lot of investors is how they get into it. It opens your mind to see what the possibilities are with value and real estate in general. Another thing that always really opened my eyes when I was younger was my grandparents moved to from Ireland in the 70s, and they bought a four-family in Wallfam (??) for about $50,000 or $60,000 back in the day. Today, I think it’s worth somewhere around like 1.5-1.6 million. So it’s just… it kind of shows you how big the market is changing and how much something can drastically change with real estate in general.
Jay: Yeah, and I know there are many different… many different things you could have pursued based on that path. Is there a reason? Because you’re not partnering with any family members right now, are you? Or are you?
Ryan: No, no. I’m just doing this all by myself at the moment.
Jay: That that’s incredible. So why did you choose to do that versus partnering with your brother or you know, your father or someone else… was that not an option? Or is this something you just really want to do by yourself?
Getting Started: FHA & 203K Loans
Ryan: No, you know, it could be an option in the future. But, we all bought properties separately, we all bought something called the FHA loan, which is, which is beginning loan from the federal government just basically to help the economy, help people be able to put money into the economy, and it allows you to buy it at a much lower down payment, 3.5% instead of the regular 20%. And that’s what we all did.
But after that, I kind of saw how much value there is in real estate and how much value I added into the property, and that’s what made me want to keep going and keep investing. But yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s what really got me started on the real estate path and be able to just basically make it a bigger part of my life.
Jay: So how did you learn? Because obviously, you know, you most people don’t understand unless they’re told or get burned at one point. But you don’t make the money when you sell the property right? You make the money when you buy it, you have to get the right property at the right price. And how did you learn to do that, because that is not obvious?
Everybody’s going to tell you that it’s a great deal, it’s a great time, it’s great location, et cetera et cetera. All of the, you know, the marketing industry around selling any sort of real estate is really finely tuned to say all the, you know, all the right things really to get you to believe you’re, you’re buying the bargain of the century.
So, how did you… how are you able to sift through that and find that the gems versus buying something that is either not a good value or worse, that’s you know, grossly overpriced? And then you either go belly up, or you have to wait, you know, many, many more years before you see the return that you’re looking for.
Ryan: Yeah, so. So, basically, what actually helped me was a project manager for my father’s restoration company. So, we actually reconstructed a lot of properties after water, fire, and mould damage. So we actually, we’re able to do all of those things that you have to do to a property when you first buy it.
But when it comes to valuing a property, I mean, I did lots and lots of research and read a lot of books for almost a year-year and a half before I actually started looking for properties. And as long as you know, the market rents for your area, it’s a lot easier to understand how much value you can get out of the rent.
So when you buy a property or rental property, it’s a lot different than buying a single-family. And obviously, the strategy is totally different than flipping. Flipping is just a whole different strategy in itself. Also, when you’re buying a rental property, it’s a lot easier per se, because your tenants are paying for your mortgage. So, when I buy a property, I don’t like to buy a property unless it’s 75% occupied or higher. So that kind of lowers the risk for me, and it helps to be able to understand the full view of the property.
And, I also use… I’m big into a real estate community called The Bigger Pockets. And they have a lot of things that beginner investors could use and they had calculators, I use the calculators, they that calculates all the expenses, they calculate all the cap-ex and vacancies. And they have in a calculator actually, basically saves you from doing what you’re saying: either that’s overpaying or just getting in trouble in the market. Because it puts all those things like cap-ex (cap-ex is the capital expenditure expense) that you need to basically get you ready to pay for a roof whenever that is, or a furnace, or all the big items. It also puts in vacancy too as well. So all those things that it puts into the calculator help you overall, put money aside for if things did happen.
And it’s also… my strategy is a lot different than just a regular buy and holds, because the regular buy and hold, you have to make sure that you have cash flow right from the beginning. Because if you don’t, then as you said, you could get in a lot of trouble, you can overpay and get stuck in the market. But what I’m doing is I’m adding value through renovation. So, I’m basically fast-forwarding and appreciating, like most people would have to wait for the appreciation to be able to actually get that value on their property. But, what I’m doing, is I’m raising the rent. And as you know, or other people know, is when you raise the rent to the property, you raise the value of the property, especially when it comes to commercial properties.
That’s where I’ve actually been purchasing property nowadays, and what I’ve realized is that it’s a lot easier to buy properties commercially than residential. Residential, you can actually get in trouble with the actual refinance process, because after you at the end of the refinance, the appraiser comes out and appraises the property, and if he doesn’t appraise it at the value he wants, then you could actually be stuck having a lot of money in the property than you originally want to.
With commercial, it’s totally different. It’s based on the actual income of the property, which I like a lot.
Jay: Sure. So as long as you’re confident you can raise the rent by making these changes, then you can… it makes it much easier, much more likely to refinance, right? You don’t have to worry about waiting to the property appreciate. So there’s that, that catch that, right?
Ryan: Yeah, exactly. And as long as you understand the market, which you can check Zillow or Redpin, and as long as you can see the rents that other people are getting, then you know what the apartments that you have can rent for, obviously give or take $50 $100. But, you know what your properties can rent for so then you know that when you renovate that property, you’re going to get this amount of rent, and that amount of rent will give you this amount of cash flow. Which entails, will raise the value of the property this amount.
Jay: Okay. So initially… so until you refinance the property. Do you and you’re doing renovations who did for this process to work, you need to have enough money to the renovations before you purchase the property. Is that is that correct?
Ryan: Yes, correct. They also have construction loans as well that you can buy the property and then the bank will fund the rehab throughout the whole process. I haven’t done that yet, but my brother actually went through that process.
Jay: Now, when your brother did that, can you essentially set up most of that before you buy the property? Because obviously you don’t want to buy and then realize you can’t get the money that you need if you’re planning on the loan. Is it relatively straightforward? Again, there’s always, you know, barring inspections and that type of thing, but is it relatively straightforward if you buy the right property?
Ryan: Yes, correct. It’s called a 203K loan. And you can actually as I said, you can get the funds for the rehab before you buy the property. But the only thing is… they give it in sections, they give it in the thirds. So, you would have to pay for the first third of the renovation and then they would inspect it, they would give the first third and then so on. The second third, the third third. But yeah, they would inspect the property as the works being done.
Jay: Got it. No, it makes sense. That makes sense. So, the process makes it makes sense. But in, you know, in this marketplace, it is very, very competitive, right.
Especially now that you got, you know, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and you know, that whole army of people right, looking for properties. There’s many many different, here in Massachusetts anyways, there are many different networking groups, I know. Like, multi-family networking groups. There’s a lot of people scouring, looking for these… so I would assume that you’re not using, you know, traditional online sources to find these? Or are you and just, you’re able to better negotiate a price? Like how do you find the actual value?
Because you can easily buy something… I can buy something today, right? But to find a value that’s going to limit the risk to the greatest degree that that’s what difficult. It sounds like you have a way of doing that?
Ryan: Yeah, so when, like I said before, commercial properties are anything over five units or above. And anything under that is a residential property. So residential, it’s very, very competitive. And it’s, it’s, it’s like you said, it’s very difficult, but when you get the commercial properties is a little bit less competition. But also I have a… the way I find properties is I use a direct mail campaign. I actually buy a list of our… what we like to look for in between 10 units and 30 units. And, we buy a list off of a website, and then we send out mailers with my company logo and just basically saying that we are interested in your property and we’d really like to talk further. And, we just send those to all the property owners and then anyone that’s actually interested would call back. And that’s how we’ve actually been getting the properties.
Jay: Wow. Yeah, yeah, no, that’s, that’s great. So now I assume that you know, 10 to 30 units is not as competitive just because the price is much higher. And so typically, an individual would be much less likely to be able to afford that? Or is it just more complicated do you think?
Ryan: Actually, yeah, a lot of people think it’s more complicated. And they may think it’s a lot harder to get to that point, but it’s really not. But, I definitely see that that forces people not to look at those properties. But yeah, so it’s definitely… I think it might be actually easier to get commercial properties than residential. Once you actually verified by the bank, and it is troubling to get verified by the bank, ut once you pass that aspect, it’s actually it’s not as bad.
Jay: Excellent. So another way that you can reduce your risk… so you want to buy at a good price, and that’s the most important thing, right? Because overbuy and that makes everything else much more difficult, even in your process.
If you know how to rehab the house and know what’s needed, so you can estimate that correctly. And then make sure it gets done effectively, on time, and under budget, hopefully, right? That’s also another way to reduce the risk. Another way would be if you had, you know, outside money of some sort. So do you take on investors or other sources of funds? Or do you fund this all yourself? Or through Title Town?
Ryan: Yeah, so I fund most of it through myself but I am taking on investors and have taken on a couple of investors. But yeah, basically, the investors are actually coming to me, instead of me going to them. Either they’re family, family friends, or something like that. But, at the moment, yeah, I haven’t actually taken on many investors, because I just haven’t… I haven’t been, I’m so, like, it’s really just going through the product that I have right now. And whenever I’m about to finish, say a month or two months, away from the finished product and about the refinance, that’s when I started sending out direct mail. And then once I find a direct mail property and say find a possible property, that’s when I start reaching out to investors and letting them know the full scope of the property that I’m looking at.
Jay: So what do you like? What advice would you give to an investor who doesn’t want to learn everything you learn, but they they see the value in this and they see that as long as they’re doing all the things you’re doing, you know, the risk is relatively low, because obviously, you can do this in a very risky way. It’s much more speculation. And that’s how people lose, you literally can lose everything you put into a property and then some, and still owe money, right? But let’s say they see they like your process, and they would like to invest alongside you. What do they need to know? And would you want them to, you know, what attitude and approach would you want them to take if they were working with with you?
It’s All About Gratitude
Ryan: Yeah, I always go back to a quote that I always think about, “it’s never as good as it looks. And it’s never as bad as it seems.” Yeah, so I basically just say, this is to younger and younger investors, younger business owners, people that are just starting out, just basically believe in the process: make sure you have really good strategies. And I always go back to, I’m big into the law of attraction. Staying positive, be grateful for what you have, especially in the United States, there’s a lot of aspects that people take for granted in the United States. When you look outside the United States, there’s a lot of issues, there’s a lot of problems, there are just today’s day and age, the United States is one of the greatest countries in the world. And a lot of people just need to just take a breath, and just realize where they are in life, and then understand that it could be a lot worse.
Jay: No, that we know that’s definitely a great point. Because all of us that were born in this country don’t always realize that we hit the lottery, right? We think you could have been born anywhere in the world, but you being born here put you, you know, immediately up in the, you know, the top part of the world’s population.
And the interesting thing, too, is is that I like your quote, by the way, that’s why I was laughing because it’s so true. But you know, so how do you stay positive? Because I’m sure there isn’t a single deal you’ve ever done that went smoothly and perfectly, right? There’s always something that you just can’t anticipate, or some problem or, you know, an extra expense, or, you know, three other things that you couldn’t even have thought of if you tried, it just happens, I’m sure you’re shaking your head sometimes. How do you get through those moments? Because that’s really important. That’s why most people don’t even start because they start to think ahead a little bit and think, oh, I don’t know what I do. For it happens to them the first time things don’t go smoothly, and they just basically quit. Right, and go back, and, you know, they don’t realize that thinking those thoughts in their head, you know, it’s like your law of attraction. Now, they’re going to just bring more of that into their life, as opposed to thinking about why you’re lucky and why things will work out and why, you know, there’s probably a solution there…. they just need to keep looking.
Right? So how do you get through those moments and stay, you know, to stay positive? And it’s great to great to… great to say, but it’s really, really hard to do.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, no, I understand that. Because a lot of people, not even just in real estate go through a lot of problems. And they have that stick with them for for a long time. And the way I look at it, the way I have run my business is, every issue or every problem, anything that happens, you need to always have a system for that situation. So say, at tenant doesn’t pay rent, you go to your drawing board, you go to your systems, and you know exactly what to do.
So anything that could possibly happen, you know, exactly what there’s a system for it. There’s already something set up for that. Say, you have an issue with one of the furnaces, the way I run my business, you have money set aside through your cap-ex already so it is already a way to go through that. But with the law of attraction and being positive, and stuff like that, I just really, really think that, like I said before, in being in the United States, and is just looking around and seeing what you had and what to be grateful for in your life actually should help a lot of people going through issues or going through problems. And, I just had a daughter, my first daughter, and she’s six months old, she just turned six months old… whenever I have an issue, or a problem, or say something couldn’t have gone worse. I mean, if you really look down to it, I’m grateful for her. I just, you know, always have something to be grateful for. That’s your main thing, and that can get you through almost anything.
Jay: Yeah, no, that’s a good point. Because you can’t be grateful, and depressed, and angry at the same time. Those all can’t exist, but you have to… you have to take a moment and just think what you can be grateful for. Because some days, if you’re like most people, it’s hard to think about something, but you’re trying, right? You just feel like the whole world is coming down on you. That’s, you know, that’s a really interesting answer, Ryan because I wasn’t expecting you to talk about systems. But I think that the preparation is really key just like in sports, right? When you’re in the sports field, if you’re in, you know, play baseball, or football, you’re on the field, you can’t be thinking, right, you got to be reacting. And you can’t do that unless you’ve already practised, drilled, and rehearsed, beforehand.
So, how did you know, to you know, put these systems in place? Because I’m sure that you know, many first time landlords know that it’s possible a tenant may not pay. Not all tenants are perfect. And they may not think ahead to put a system in place, what happens? Now they don’t know what to do. Should I wait? Should I do this? Should I let it ride? You know, and then they bring all this stress into their life because they didn’t do what you apparently do and have a system in place. How did you do that… did you just know to do that? Or did you learn that from one of these courses? Or from you know, your relatives who are already doing this? Or how did that come to be?
Systems: Do They Work?
Ryan: One of the first signs of, or thing, that I learned it from was actually a person from Bigger Pockets, wrote a book. And this book, basically, it kind of gets you ready for that in a way. And in the way… the way he runs everything is with systems.
So he has everything set up perfectly and I got the paperwork and everything else from that book. But once, even if you think about it… say, when I first started investing in real estate, I obviously didn’t know much at all, it was kind of… to be honest, it’s scary. Now, you don’t know what the next thing is going to happen. But if you… and from that book, I learned that if, say the worst possible thing that could happen, as long as you have a something to go to or something to look to, you don’t have to be worried about anything that’s going to happen or any problems, because you already have, as I said before a system to be able to look at and say, “that’s what I need to do.”
And it just, it also helps with stress, it helps with your attitude, it just helps with everything all together to have just something to look to so you don’t have to know. The same thing with, with real estate, it’s all about passive. It’s trying to invest passively. And that’s that’s a way to help with the being more passive in your business is to just have, and this is also a way for me to if I ever move away from my business, or I want someone else to take over what I’m doing, it’s easier for them to look at the systems when something goes wrong.
Jay: Interesting. So, you know, with that said, would you consider selling any of your properties now? Or are you looking for someone to buy this? Or is this something that is kind of case-by-case, and you keep every one until either a better opportunity comes up or there’s a there’s an issue with the property that you hadn’t anticipated?
Ryan: Yeah. I have thought about selling some of my property. Basically, at the end of every year, I take into account which properties I have. And, I always think about selling the worst one. But, I haven’t come up yet with selling anywhere on properties yet. But obviously every investor every property owner always thinking about selling their worst one.
Jay: Sure. And what is the kind of worst headaches for you? Is it more like you know, the people issues with the tenants? Or is it more just the maybe the location? Or things you have to do to the actual building itself?
Ryan: I think it has to do with just making sure you get the right tenant. I think that a lot of people don’t understand how important it is to get the right tenant. Because, at the beginning of my investing, I just wanted to get the first person in there. And basically, you want to get it running as quickly as possible. But as I learned, that’s the worst possible thing you could do. The first person is always the worst person.
Jay: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there is a reason they’re so eager. Well, it’s the same way when you’re hiring employees, right? You want to hire the best person for the job, not just the best of the three that applied, right? That’s usually not a good recipe.
And, like you, I learned that the hard way, right? So how do you make sure you get the right tenant? Because that’s something that I think a new real estate investor may not know or anticipate. You think that everyone’s going to want to come in and be a good tenant, and pay on time, and, you know, not bother their neighbors. But what sort of process do you look at to minimize having a bad person in there?
Ryan: Yeah, so I have a system for that as well. Firstly, we always make sure we do a background check, we always make sure that we check their history, make sure that there’s no arrests, no evictions, nothing like that. And then, obviously, the normal things like the credit score, they need to their income, their income needs to meet three times the monthly rent… there’s all, there’s like five or six things that they need to meet, just to be able to get an application. And then once you get an application, then you can tell more about them if the property can be a fit for them.
Jay: So do you actually interview them too? Or do you have someone else do that? Or do you just use the application itself to make your decision?
Ryan: Yeah, I use the application to get them in the door. So, when they fill out the application, then I’ll actually show them the property. And then after I show them the property, then I let them know if they’re accepted or not. Usually, as long as you’re in a decent market, you have five or six applicants that you’re showing to that you can actually pick who you want out of those, those applicants.
Jay: Wow, fantastic. That’s a solid process. Now, again, no, no process is perfect. So, but if you have a process in place for when it isn’t, then that will definitely reduce your stress, too. It’s interesting. And the other thing you talked about a little bit before we, before we started was about kind of helping the surrounding community, which is very unique, right, because I was talking to before earlier, they all know, the definition of what a corporation is, has been changed. Now, it used to be just, you know, maximize the value for the shareholders. Now it’s, you know, maximize the value for the stakeholders, which includes, you know, the surrounding communities, and you know, business partners and other things, which I think is making a lot more sense. So, we don’t have these companies or, you know, rental units, for instance, you know, behaving in a way that doesn’t help everyone around them, which is, I think, a much better, you know, much better society for all of us to live in.
So, it’s great to hear that you you think about that. But how do you… how are you able to execute on that, that may be a different owner, may or may not?
Ryan: Yeah, so sometimes I’ll actually do some of the work myself, and I’ll take into an account, how the tenants are actually going to feel, how they’re going to view the property from the outside and the in inside. A lot of owners or investors, they’ll go do the least amount of possible to get the most amount of rent. And the way I look at it is: I don’t look at it as I’m going to live there. But I at least look at it as if I saw it, it would be a positive experience. Go back to the law of attraction: as long as people can actually be positive and be grateful for for the view of the house. Sometimes going above and beyond with the landscaping with let’s say, have a seating area in the back and a lawn… just have things where people can actually understand that you’re a good owner, not just a slumlord.
Jay: Yeah, you know, I remember where I grew up there was one house and it was kind of run down. And, but, I never realized how much it impacted my attitude until a new owner came in and completely changed the landscaping, and you know, cleaned it up. And I don’t think they spent a lot of money, they just put a lot of care. It was really amazing. Even just you know how your attitude can change, something like that. Have you gotten any feedback from any people in the neighbourhoods about what you’ve been able to do? Because I expect is probably pretty dramatic in some cases?
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Actually the property I’m doing right now, I’ve had a couple of neighbors that didn’t even live in the property actually just a block over and just kind of shake my hand and say “this was one of those the worst houses on the street. I appreciate you helping the community, and the grass used to grow two feet high.” You know, they just basically said that it’s helping the community, there’s a school right down the street. And it just helps the whole community as a whole. And obviously, when you raise the appearance of a property, it helps your neighbours and the rest of the property as well.
Jay: Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah, it raises their values, right. When people like, you know, like the look of the whole street. It’s kind of like that, you know, the broken window theory with the with policing, right? It’s if you take care of the neighbourhood and fix things that are broken, people are less likely to misbehave and do things I shouldn’t be doing right? You’re a little more respectful, and a little better behaved. But, if everything’s run down and doesn’t look like it’s being taken care of you don’t necessarily feel the need to, you know, be on your best behaviour. So, yeah, it’s amazing how that works. And it’s great that people near your properties, see that and appreciate it. That’s pretty amazing and changing the neighborhood, which is I’m sure they weren’t… wouldn’t be expecting necessarily from a new owner.
Ryan: Oh, no, that’s definitely true. And just put another aspect on it, the previous owner that owned this property actually never even showed up to the property for two years. The first time I was there, all the tenants are actually surprised why I was I was knocking on the door just to introduce myself. They thought something was wrong, they thought there was an issue, like an emergency and I just let them know that I’m the new owner. And I just want to let you know if there are any issues or if you have any things that need to be fixed inside the apartment, just please let me know. And this is my number and my email. And yeah, they were just very surprised.
Jay: Wow, no, that’s great. Well, you know, a lot of cases in our society the bar is very, very low, and yet people still can’t exceed it, right? So that’s great. Well, I’m glad the tendency that also that you’re different than your you want to do more for them and for the people around them. So that’s, that’s incredible. Right, is there anything that I’ve missed? This has really been interesting to see how you approach this. I don’t know… you know, I know a lot of real estate people but I don’t know if I know anyone who is doing exactly what you’re doing. So I wasn’t expecting to get a little different take on the process and how you look at things, so thank you for for sharing that. But I want to make sure I didn’t miss anything because we’ve covered a lot of things here.
Ryan: Yeah, no, I think I think that’s it besides just realizing the value in commercial property. As I know I said a little bit about it, but I just hope people understand that commercial real estate is… there’s tremendous value in commercial real estate and it’s actually easier to raise the value in commercial real estate. Basically the only other thing I wanted to get in there.
Jay: So, if somebody who really you know, likes your ideas and wants to talk some more about it. Say, you know, pick your brain or maybe even better alongside you as you find your next opportunities. What’s the best way for them to reach you?
Ryan: Yeah, just reach me by email on TitleTownACQ@gmail.com or Ryan@titletownacquisitions.com.
Jay: Got it. Okay, so that’s great. Well, it’s been a fascinating conversation, Ryan. Thank you very much for taking a few minutes to go over what you do and how you think. I think this probably get some people thinking when they when they listen to this. This has really been amazing. And, thank you, everyone, else for listening to Finding Unique Value. I look forward to our next guest with you soon. And thanks, everyone. Bye for now.